I have heard rumors that there may be some river closures when the G20 conference is in town in late September. Does anyone know for sure if these will take place?
One word ..yes. I am assigned to SWAT/River Rescue. I would not plan on boating the rivers during that time.
Originally Posted by aquaholic
I have heard rumors that there may be some river closures when the G20 conference is in town in late September. Does anyone know for sure if these will take place?
Thanks for joining the forum and thanks for the info. i'm sure there will be more specific closure information closer to then and plenty of inspections. As said above, if you want to avoid that it sounds like a weekend to boat down river or at a lake to me.
There is probably a Steeler home game that weekend that they will have to reschedule as well since there will be 70,000 people at and around Heinz Field.
Also, Thank you citycop4 for joining the forum. Hopefully you can give us an inside voice as to what is going on in and around the rivers.
Just looked and there aren't any football games that weekend at Heinz Field. The Pirates are scheduled to be in town at the same time as the summit, but we all know that no one will be going to those games. Ha, ha.
It seems to me that if law enforcement was good at their jobs, they could showcase the importance of the rivers to the local economy while protecting the safety of the dignitaries at the same time.
It seems to me that you don't demonstrate the success of the American way of life by curbing civil liberties for the sake of convenience.
There are morons out there that don't care about your enjoyment of life. When G20 comes to town there will be thousands of protestors from around the world that will attend, with a very violent minority intent on causing disruptions to the convention as well as the city. They will employ tactics this city has never seen before, including causing as much damage as they can. Google G20 and look on YouTube to see what we're up against.
In addition to the protestors, there is a very real threat of terrorist activity due to the number of global leaders in attendance.
Keep in mind Timothy Mcvay used a rental truck loaded with explosives to blow up the federal building. Just think what could be loaded into a boat and piloted almost under the Convention Center.
Those of us in this city who wear a badge are not looking forward to this event and would love nothing more than to see another city as the host. We're praying we come through this without injury and the City remains standing when the convention is over. Then we can all return to enjoying the rivers.
We are talking about LONDON, not the US. To quote the Washington Times:
The far-left ANSWER coalition — a group that has drawn thousands of anti-war protesters to Washington in the past — mustered about 10 demonstrators Saturday outside the National Building Museum, site of the G-20 economic summit.
In all, it was estimated that there were less than 500 people specifically protesting the G-20 Summit in Washington (there were other protests in the city at the same time, having nothing to do with the G-20). Oh, and by the way, officially is is G-20 (with a dash).
I admit that Pittsburgh has some logistical problems, which makes it a stupid place to hold such a meeting since you can't close the entire Golden Triangle. But there are ways to monitor and control the flow of boat traffic without shutting down the entire river and, if local law enforcement doesn't understand that, maybe they should go to London, Paris, Geneva, Cologne or Amsterdam, where they have had meetings of world leaders and where they have bodies of water and don't close them down.
The goal is to showcase the vitality of the Pittsburgh region, not to turn Pittsburgh into a Western version of East Berlin.
As for bringing explosives in by boat, the Oklahoma City bombing used about 7,000 pounds of explosives. a 7,000 pound cargo is going to rule out about half of all of the pleasure craft in this area, if not more, and would be easy to detect by inspection. So post patrols at the point and the 16th Street Bridge and announce that all boats entering the area are subject to inspection.
Or, you could simply annouce that the rivers are closed to traffic during the meetings, but mooring would be permitted on the North Shore and South Shore except under the convention center. It wouldn't require significant resources to do foot patrols along the shores.
For Pittsburgh, the goal is to showcase the city. Showing a city with empty rivers and streets will make us look like a ghost town. If I were running the city instead of the moron who is, I'd want the public to see a city teeming with life, including river life. I'd want to get the kind of crowds that we got for the Kenny Chesney concert.
THAT would do more to change the public perception of Pittsburgh than turning the city into a fortress for two days.
Joe, while I agree with your desire to showcase the city in such a way, it really is a logistical problem to be allowed to do such in a low key, low impact way while providing proper security. The planning for the upcoming G-20 summit is a logistical nightmare. They are estimating that we will need approximately 5000 law enforcement personel to successfully provide security for the city and citizens. There are some estimates that upwards of 60,000 protestors are going to be here. I have been recommending to everyone that if they do not need to go near downtown Pittsburgh during this time, dont. Its for their own safety, peace of mind and its also to help make Law Enforcements job easier. This will allow us to focus more on the extremists and not on the peacefull citizens wrapped up in the same area or as potential victims. During events like this, everything becomes a potential threat. Each person could have a firearm, explosive, each parked car, truck or boat. Every abandoned building, corner, wooded area, park, etc. needs to be checked and secured. I do hope that it all turns out to be alot of planning and worrying for nothing. But, we are planning for the worst. And if that means asking people to stay at home or boat elsewhere, then so be it. Besides, late september usually has very few boaters left on the rivers aside from Steeler games anyways.
I seriously doubt that anywhere near 60,000 people will show up, here. It is easier to get to Washington (which is a far more desirable place to visit than Pittsburgh), and there was barely a wimper. Travel is expensive and hotels will be hard to come by given the large numbers of press and others.
Besides, if you worked in downtown, you'd know there is no way that the city could even accommodate an additional 60,000 people. It, simply, isn't going to happen. Besides, as I mentioned in another forum and as Ben Franklin said (a true irony since it was in the context of the 4th of July celebration), those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Finally, I might mention that in London, the top estimate was 30,000 protesters in a city much larger than Pittsburgh and the only death was of a protester and there is an ongoing investigation as to whether the police caused his death. The London police have since changed their tactics for crowd control based upon the belief that, in part, their techniques were responsible for provoking the violence (against buildings, not people). We don't have the corporate headquarters of many international banks in Pittsburgh, anymore.
We have Constitutional rights including the freedom of association and the freedom to peaceably assemble. Pre-empting these in the absence of credible threats, for whatever reason, violates our Constititional rights.
Remember that it was a Pittsburgh police officer who illegally cited a driver for flipping him off (a violation of the driver's Constitutional right to freedom o expression).
I have done a lot of work for Federal and local law enforcement and have law enforcement personnel in my family and have a great deal of respect for what they do. But protecting our Constitutional rights sometimes meaning making hard choices in favor of liberties. That is what tens of thousands of US soldiers have died for in the last 100 years.
We seem to be will to trade too many liberties for what are perceived threats. All I am saying is that if we can't protect security and liberty, then we should give up the pretense of being a free society and acknowledge, instead, that we are free only when it suits the authorities (as it did when anti-Bush protestors were precluded from demonstrating close to where President Bush was delivering a speech, right here in Allegheny County).
I hope the estimates are off. But what would you rather us do? Scoff at the estimates and say nothing will happen or plan for the worst case scenario? There are no plans to curtail any legal assemblies or protests. But, there will be steps taken to prevent individuals from disrupting the events and life in general for the citizens here. That being said, some freedoms of movement will be restricted within reason. Most protestors will be peacefull and use passive tactics. But, its the small minority of radicals that will cause the bulk of problems. These are the ones that you have to plan for. Its a delicate balance that has to be maintained. Do too little and you have a major incident happen resulting in everybody screaming for heads to roll cause nobody was protected. Do too much and people start crying "Police State" and complain that their civil liberties were violated.
I hope the estimates are off. But what would you rather us do? Scoff at the estimates and say nothing will happen or plan for the worst case scenario?
First, we should scoff at any estimates that seem unreasonable. London is accessible by most of Europe. Pittsburgh is not. So does the number 60,000 seem reasonable when only HALF that protested in London? No! Why?
In part because the US citizenry is not as disenchanted with the G-20 as is most of Europe. Sure, our economy is in the toilet, but anyone who has been to and lived in Europe for any time realizes that Europeans are much more interested in "socialism" than the citizens of the US and, as such, much more disappointed in what their governments are perceived to have failed to do.
Most US citizens don't give a darn about the G-20. And we are not likely to get TWICE the response as the UK!
More to the point, the US is supposed to be about the triumph of individual liberties over government control. We built the largest economy in the world because of individual liberties. So we are going to forsake that for TWO DAY meeting (and does anyone seriously think that 60,000 people are going to descend on Pittsburgh for a TWO DAY closed door meeting?)
C'mon. Be reasonable. We aren't as significant to the rest of the planet as we would like to think that we are. But if we resort to police state tactics to make a point, we'll be demonstrating that we are no better than those who criticize us.
First, we should scoff at any estimates that seem unreasonable. London is accessible by most of Europe. Pittsburgh is not. So does the number 60,000 seem reasonable when only HALF that protested in London? No! Why?
In part because the US citizenry is not as disenchanted with the G-20 as is most of Europe. Sure, our economy is in the toilet, but anyone who has been to and lived in Europe for any time realizes that Europeans are much more interested in "socialism" than the citizens of the US and, as such, much more disappointed in what their governments are perceived to have failed to do.
Most US citizens don't give a darn about the G-20. And we are not likely to get TWICE the response as the UK!
More to the point, the US is supposed to be about the triumph of individual liberties over government control. We built the largest economy in the world because of individual liberties. So we are going to forsake that for TWO DAY meeting (and does anyone seriously think that 60,000 people are going to descend on Pittsburgh for a TWO DAY closed door meeting?)
C'mon. Be reasonable. We aren't as significant to the rest of the planet as we would like to think that we are. But if we resort to police state tactics to make a point, we'll be demonstrating that we are no better than those who criticize us.
Joe...I'm a pretty strict constitutionalist and I am pretty sure it doesn't mention "Freedom Of River Opening"....please correct me if I'm wrong. In this case a river closure is very likely....this is the G-20...not The National Avon Cosmetics Convention. They are gonna layer security and do so in what we may consider overkill but it falls well short of suspending our constitutional rights. As for your contention that Pgh cannot handle 60,000 people and that because you travel downtown you know it can't...I would recommend you search youtube for Steeler or Penguin parade video. Whether they show or not, law enforcement needs to be prepared for it.
The river closure won't be as bad as we think. The summit is on a Thursday and Friday, so there won't be that many boats out on the river. Also, this is taking place in late September, so there will be even less boats on the river during the week. I know that I am going to stay clear of the city and the convention center that week. Hopefully the city exposure will be a good thing for our region.
I hope I have at least one chance to boat around the protesters. I have been trying to come up with the best banners I can fly from my boat to fire them up. So far I think that "NUKE A GAY DOLPHIN FOR JESUS" will get the biggest reaction but I am up for any other suggestions. Any ideas?
Joe...I'm a pretty strict constitutionalist and I am pretty sure it doesn't mention "Freedom Of River Opening"....please correct me if I'm wrong. In this case a river closure is very likely....this is the G-20...not The National Avon Cosmetics Convention. They are gonna layer security and do so in what we may consider overkill but it falls well short of suspending our constitutional rights. As for your contention that Pgh cannot handle 60,000 people and that because you travel downtown you know it can't...I would recommend you search youtube for Steeler or Penguin parade video. Whether they show or not, law enforcement needs to be prepared for it.
Bill of Rights,
First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Ninth Amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Thus, there doesn't have to be a "Freedom of River Opening" right. The laws pertaining to river closings are intended to protect those who would navigate the waters. I can understand road closings because the delegates are going to arrive by either helicopter at the Point or by motorcade and it is only prudent that they be able to progress unimpeded. Insofar as I am aware, none are arriving by water.
There are many less Draconian measures which would allow boats passage but not mooring, etc. But, of course, that would require more effort on the part of law enforcement and why do it when the easiest thing is simply to close the river.
I don't make these statements, lightly. As I already noted, I have many personal and professional connections to law enforcement. But, as Franklin is alleged to have written:
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Our nation was built upon the concept of personal liberties. Taking these liberties away for the sake of expediency, alone, merely give credence to those who argue that tyranny is preferable for safety.
First, I want to make sure I used correct grammar in the title. I don't want to offend anyone by omitting the 'dash'. Moron....
My husband will be patrolling our three rivers on the 24th and 25th. Do I worry about his well-being? YEAH. Do I hope he is safe and comes home both nights (if he can get through the city)? YEAH. So, if anything does happen, I'll be sure to direct the appropriate people to your threads, JoeLeaphorn, since you are hell-bent on having minimum security on the water.
I'm sure my husband and the other officers will have more important things to worry about that having to check, board and inspect dumb-a** 'pleasure' boaters, that just HAVE to be out on the water these two days. All the commercial traffic will need to be verified, I think that's enough to worry about. Two days is all they're asking - to keep private/pleasure boats out of the area. Isn't that almost like a detour that keeps you from your usual/quick routes? How dare PennDot do that to you !! I think you should protest all the detours in and around the city, that inconvenience you. Do you realize how far upriver they'll have to patrol?
You are not God, you cannot predict the future. You can't look at past G-20's and say 'oh well, nothing happened there, so nothing will happen to us'. And bull to your comment that if our police and security were 'good enough', then we wouldn't need all this extra beefed up security. We are not losing our liberty and freedom by having thousands of police/security/secret service in our city for this event.
For someone that was in law-enforcment, and having relatives in the same field, you don't show very much support.
I'm sure my husband and the other officers will have more important things to worry about that having to check, board and inspect dumb-a** 'pleasure' boaters, that just HAVE to be out on the water these two days.
The right to exercise one's personal liberties is not contingent upon the motivation or purpose unless that purpose is illegal. Whether they are "dumb-a**" or not is irrelevant.
Most of the North Shore walkway is going to be closed for media vehicles including trucks, busses and vans. You think that it isn't possible that one of these could be used for illegal purposes.
And if you read my post, you'd see that I specifically mentioned allowing boaters to tie up during the two day event, not motor through. The rivers and boating are important to our economic history and to our present day character. To say that the world is going to see Pittsburgh in a new light is preposterous. The Kenny Chesney concert was a better view of Pittsburgh than a waterfront lined with media vehicles and devoid of boats.
For someone that was in law-enforcment, and having relatives in the same field, you don't show very much support.
I have a great deal of respect for law enforcement wnen they are protecting the rights of everyone. But,to read the paper, we are already seeing abuses in the form of warrantless searches and interference with the freedom of association in the name of national security. Nonesense. At the time that these were taking place, there existed sufficient time to establish probable cause and obtain a warrant. They are setting up temporary jail space so I'm sure that they have judges on call to handle search warrants.
Well, thank God that's over. It was in the middle of the week, it rained, and Pittsburgh is still standing.
No harm done on either (any) side.
Oh yeah, it was 83 degrees in MS today.
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1969 River Queen 40'
and a 24' Pontoon "Red Solo Cup"
Port of Fulton, MS
River closures for G20 ?
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Originally Posted by aquaholic
